DUST Search - Skill point cap as simple multiple of passive points

R F Gyro wrote:

RECON BY FIRE wrote:

Youre not looking through the point of view of a new player though. New players have no corp, no friends, no skills, no isk, they have nothing. How do they get those things? They have to play and earn SP and ISK. The ISK I feel like is way too low as well since doing well in one match barely covers even the lowest of decent fittings, but thats another subject. All a new player will see is I need skills to do well and how do I get those skills? I need SP. Can I get the SP required for me to aquire those things? At first yes, but then very quickly that ability goes away. So what is their reason to stick with the game? Just because theyre still making ISK that they cant spend? One day maybe a good corporation will possibly let little nooby in and teach them the ins and outs of the game and then they can finally feel accomplished 3 months into the game? What is the point for them? Other more established games can give them the challenge theyre searching for while feeling rewarded and moving up in accomplishments whereas this game stagnates for them very quickly.

They'll play for the drone PvE or the faction warfare. They'll join a n00b-friendly corp (maybe Dust Uni). Or maybe they'll just go straight into Goonswarm and fight in nullsec sov wars.

They will earn SP and ISK, bit-by-bit, and get better skills and better gear.

Many of them will have been enticed by the claim that it will take several years to learn all the skills; if they find they can grind to max skills in a month or two because the beta players QQ'd about SP caps then they'll do that grinding, get maxed, get bored and quit.


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RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.03 15:45:00 - [1] - Quote How will that work with alts? It would take forever for someone to make even 2 of their 3 characters half decent.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.03 23:11:00 - [2] - Quote Couldnt we just make it a better version of what is already in place? Keep the 500k point cap, keep passive SP, and simply make the SP you earn after cap higher. After you reach cap make it a max of 5000 SP you can earn per match, and you have to make over 1000 WP in the match to earn the max of 5000. If you make 500 WP you get 2500 SP and so on through the scale. It could even be bumped up to 1500 WP for 5000 SP if that seems more fair, but that way people get a decent reward for doing well while not gaining a massively significant advantage over players who play less.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.04 18:01:00 - [3] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: Couldnt we just make it a better version of what is already in place? Keep the 500k point cap, keep passive SP, and simply make the SP you earn after cap higher. After you reach cap make it a max of 5000 SP you can earn per match, and you have to make over 1000 WP in the match to earn the max of 5000. If you make 500 WP you get 2500 SP and so on through the scale. It could even be bumped up to 1500 WP for 5000 SP if that seems more fair, but that way people get a decent reward for doing well while not gaining a massively significant advantage over players who play less. How do you decide what is "fair"? Players already get a reward for doing well, even when they've hit their SP cap: ISK. In the mid- to long-term there will be lasting consequences to winning/losing battles as well, which will be the primary reward. We'll need a better rationale for increasing SP rewards for fighting battles if we want to counter the drawbacks. The rationale is keeping players interest. People arent going to play for their first couple days getting 10k+ SP for doing good and then all the sudden randomly go to 500 SP just because theyve hit a cap that they dont even know exists yet. Theyre going to say "this is BS im not getting my just reward, let me go play [generic FPS game] because I get rewarded fairly there." Getting ISK is a nice reward and Ive seen people try to say this should be good enough of a reward after we hit cap, but it simply isnt. Ive been waiting for this game to come out since it was announced, just activated my beta code about a week ago, and am already losing interest in the game because Im not getting anything out of it. Getting an average of 150k ISK a match is nice and all, but what am I going to spend it on? I dont have the skills to use anything nice yet so its just sitting there in my wallet taunting me. Heres the point of this story, I am a former EVE player who is used to waiting a month for a good skill to finish training and even I am bored with this game and its skill system already! Despite the fact that a DUST character can earn more SP even with the current system in place faster than my EVE character ever could with really good implants on it! Can you imagine how the everyday FPS player is going to feel? Players want a challenge and are ok with complexity and depth in a game. Im not going to say FPS players are too stupid or have too short of an attention span to grasp this game. Im just saying that nobody wants to put effort into something that they arent going to get fair reward out of. We all do enough of that in real life to put up with it in a video game. So this is why I say keep the cap, and keep a diminished SP reward. The reward just needs to be bigger so that people feel justly rewarded while not gaining a super significant advantage.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.04 20:50:00 - [4] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: The rationale is.... ... The reward just needs to be bigger so that people feel justly rewarded while not gaining a super significant advantage. All that only applies while SP is the only significant reward in the game. That is not supposed to be the case; its just where the game is right now. The rewards need to be different, not bigger. SP is a means to an end, not the end itself. Youre not looking through the point of view of a new player though. New players have no corp, no friends, no skills, no isk, they have nothing. How do they get those things? They have to play and earn SP and ISK. The ISK I feel like is way too low as well since doing well in one match barely covers even the lowest of decent fittings, but thats another subject. All a new player will see is I need skills to do well and how do I get those skills? I need SP. Can I get the SP required for me to aquire those things? At first yes, but then very quickly that ability goes away. So what is their reason to stick with the game? Just because theyre still making ISK that they cant spend? One day maybe a good corporation will possibly let little nooby in and teach them the ins and outs of the game and then they can finally feel accomplished 3 months into the game? What is the point for them? Other more established games can give them the challenge theyre searching for while feeling rewarded and moving up in accomplishments whereas this game stagnates for them very quickly.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.04 22:16:00 - [5] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: Youre not looking through the point of view of a new player though. New players have no corp, no friends, no skills, no isk, they have nothing. How do they get those things? They have to play and earn SP and ISK. The ISK I feel like is way too low as well since doing well in one match barely covers even the lowest of decent fittings, but thats another subject. All a new player will see is I need skills to do well and how do I get those skills? I need SP. Can I get the SP required for me to aquire those things? At first yes, but then very quickly that ability goes away. So what is their reason to stick with the game? Just because theyre still making ISK that they cant spend? One day maybe a good corporation will possibly let little nooby in and teach them the ins and outs of the game and then they can finally feel accomplished 3 months into the game? What is the point for them? Other more established games can give them the challenge theyre searching for while feeling rewarded and moving up in accomplishments whereas this game stagnates for them very quickly. They'll play for the drone PvE or the faction warfare. They'll join a n00b-friendly corp (maybe Dust Uni). Or maybe they'll just go straight into Goonswarm and fight in nullsec sov wars. They will earn SP and ISK, bit-by-bit, and get better skills and better gear. Many of them will have been enticed by the claim that it will take several years to learn all the skills; if they find they can grind to max skills in a month or two because the beta players QQ'd about SP caps then they'll do that grinding, get maxed, get bored and quit. Im not in any way making a case for full out skills being grindable within a month or two. But lets do some math here. Lets say that a match takes 15 minutes and the average play time for a player is 3 hours a day, thats 12 matches. Lets also say that it takes the average player 3 days to hit SP cap. That leaves 4 days or 48 matches, Ill even round it to 50 just to make the numbers pretty. If under the system I proposed a player receives over 1000 WP in every single of those matches they would earn an extra 250k SP. Thats a pretty nice reward, but its not game shattering. Especially considering the average player likely will not break 1000 WP in every game, and if they do then they deserve their 250k SP. I lol very very hard at your suggestion players will stick around for drone PVE and faction warfare by the way. When I played EVE faction warfare was a joke and I dont think that will really change, although I could be wrong on that. But drone PVE. Really? You see the average COD/MOH player switching games to shoot at drones? Even I dont want to do that and I used to farm the hell out of some level 4 missions in EVE. It was boring. Godforsakingly boring!
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.05 20:05:00 - [6] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: That's a nice idea, and I'm all in favour, but it doesn't solve the "daily or weekly cap?" problem. It should be weekly unless there is some sort of rollover system. A daily system promotes a you must play every single day of your life or youll be worse off than everyone else attitude.